the rachel maddow show, transcript 01/11/11
Ladies and gentlemen, here\'s Rachel Mado.
Good evening, Rachel.
Host: Good evening, Keith. Thank you.
Thank you for staying with us for an hour at home.
We start with a question Tonight: If you have a gun made entirely of plastic, all the parts of the gun are high enough, so the gun can be used as a gun, but none of them are metal, so it won\'t be detected by metal detectors?
That means, from the Capitol to the airport, to the event of meeting with the president, every person protected by a metal detector, you can get the gun there, scot-free.
You can go through the metal detector with a gun and no one will know you have that gun.
It\'s legal to carry everything. plastic gun?
These things can be made.
Glock is the manufacturing company for the guns used in the Arizona shoot this weekend, and Glock announced in the 1980 s that they have perfected the manufacturing technology to allow them to do so.
Is it legal to buy a gun like this in the United States? No.
This should not be legal.
At the very least, this is a decision taken by our country when problems arise.
As early as 1988, Congress voted on whether the sale of plastic guns in the country was legal.
The House passed the measure by 413 votes to 4.
There are only four votes against it.
One of the four votes, one of the four people who voted against the illegal plastic gun at that time was-
Wyoming congressman Dick Cheney
In 2000, 12 years later, and 12 years after that vote, Dick Cheney was still struggling with that vote.
The vote plagued his entire political career. (
Start the video clip, \"meet with the media\"/NBC-JULY 30, 2000)
Tim Ruster, meet with the media: two votes that do generate a lot of interest, especially in police organizations, are your votes for gun control.
The first is a ban on police killer bullets.
The result of the vote was 400 in favor and 21 in opposition.
And vote for terrorists to hijack planes to pass plastic guns that can\'t be safely detected, 413 to 4.
These are not Democratic/Republican figures, but liberal/conservative figures.
This is a side vote.
You\'re one of four.
Today, will you vote for measures to ban police killer bullets and plastic guns that cannot be detected by airport security?
Richard Cheney, FMRU. S.
The Deputy President: It is clear that I would be happy to accept the idea.
I don\'t want to say I absolutely don\'t like police killer bullets.
I\'m obviously not.
But I think both cases are in the case of the suspension rule.
They put forward places where changes are not allowed, and the debate is limited. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Even 12 years later, you can see him twisting his body on it.
Dick Cheney tried to escape the stigma of voting by saying, oh, this is about the process of the ban being put forward.
I am not satisfied with the closed rule process.
NRA initially naturally opposed legislation that would \"ban plastic guns.
But even if the NRA looked around and realized what it made them look like, they changed their mind.
Finally, with the acquiescence of the NRA, the plastic gun ban passed by an overwhelming margin.
President Reagan signed into law in November 19.
Now, in that \"see the reporter\" clip, you heard it too.
Rastel not only voted for the plastic gun ban, but also for him in so-
Police killer bullets
If you\'re the same age as the suspect in the shooting this weekend, Jared Loughner, if you\'re in your early 20 s, it could be a phrase you haven\'t even heard.
But in the 80 s and 1990s S, police killer bullets received a lot of attention and were banned.
On 1986, after a vote of 97 to 1 in the Senate, bullets designed to penetrate full body armor were banned.
In August of that year, President Ronald Reagan once again signed a ban on police killer bullets.
It was also under President Reagan\'s leadership when we, as a nation, decided to take the great leap forward to ban the production of fully automatic machine guns for civilian use.
Yes, it was Ronald Reagan who signed legislation in 1986 to make the campaign illegal. of-the-
Mill, USA every dayS.
Civilians continue to buy machine guns.
Do you want to have your own air defense weapons?
There are still aircraft observation areas at some airports.
This is one of my favorite things about some reports.
Remember we used to think it was cool to encourage airport travel and let people watch planes take off and land.
Well, whether or not you have these areas at your local airport, you are not welcome to take your own counter
Aircraft weapons go to one of these areas because it\'s also a matter of federal regulation. Oh, the horror.
Your second amendment right does not include allowing you to be an American citizen. S.
Citizens with artillery capable of shooting aircraft from the air.
And the situation is not very controversial.
None of this.
Aircraft weapons, machine guns or plastic guns, police killer bullets, none of which were weapons or ammunition used in the Arizona shooting this weekend.
The accused killer chose a $500 pistol, which is nothing unusual.
But after the shooting, after the grief and anger across the country and the desire to respond to the shooting, even though the country now feels like this, but no form of gun control, no form of public policy can try to contain the gun slaughter in the United States, and I think the idea is incorrect, because it is impossible to pass any legislation on firearms in the United States.
Three days after the shooting this weekend, we have almost reached the point where no one in politics can agree on anything.
But left, right, middle, about the diagnosis of whether we, as a nation, are capable of dealing with the issue of gun slaughter in the United States, everyone agrees that this is completely impossible, right? Look at this.
\"Why is gun control dead in the United States.
Today is \"salon \".
\"Democrats and Republicans agree that gun control is not
Starting today in Arizona after filming on the talk point memo.
\"The Arizona shooting is unlikely to change federal gun laws,\" the Miami Herald reported today.
\"Don\'t expect any change in gun laws after the Tucson shooting,\" Today in \"FireDogLake \".
\"Gun control advocates have barely changed after the shooting in gifforth,\" Huffington Post reported today.
I\'m not trying to find a pessimistic story today about the possibility of a new policy for this shooting, but that\'s all.
The reason why we are the longest surviving democracy in the world, and the reason why we are proud of the jingoism of the American democratic experiment is because simply in the core idea of our democracy, we will form a representative government that will gain legitimacy from the people, so that we will not be at the top because of some-
But as a nation, we can collectively address the problems that arise in our country through our representation.
Whether it\'s competition or threats from other countries, whether it\'s natural disasters, whether it\'s the risk or hope of our complex free-market capitalist economy, whether it\'s disease, panic, terrorism or crime, the entire capital of the US government, the \"I\" concept is that as a nation, we can solve the problems that arise here.
We can solve the problems that arise in our country.
We are not helpless until the universe gives us something, or some wise man with inherited titles thinks it is best for us.
We can solve the problem ourselves.
This is what our government should have.
One of the problems we face as a country is gun killings and mass shootings.
Arizona was the first in 2011.
They have at least seven people in the past five years.
We listed some of the shows last night, but we didn\'t even list all of them.
No other country in the world has the problem of gun slaughter like the United States.
Corumbyn, Virginia Tech, Jones Boro, University of Northern Illinois, hudderburg, Red Lake, Minnesota, Brookfield, Wisconsin, Atlanta, Killin, Texas, Tucson
The general view now is that this is a problem that the United States cannot solve, and our government cannot use it to solve it.
We were helpless before that.
Until six years ago, it was not legal for Jared Loughner to buy £ 30.
When he allegedly went to Your Corner event in Tucson on Saturday morning, there was the round magazine in his Glock.
According to law enforcement officials,
Loughner made a round in his gun room and hit 30 rounds in an extended magazine, an extended magazine that stretches like this to the bottom of the gun.
It is reported that he has another of those 30
Round clip plus two standardsized 15-
Round clip in his pocket
When he stopped to reload after emptying the first magazine, he was stopped and the killing was stopped. (
Start Video Editing)
Sheriff clarence dupnik, az pima County: When the gentleman ran out of ammunition from his first magazine, he tried to replace the magazine.
We had a woman\'s name, but I didn\'t. She went up and grabbed the magazine and tore it off of him.
If he does this successfully, a great disaster will happen. (END VIDEO CLIP)
If the attack happened six years ago, not last weekend, unless
Rafa, who has funds for illegally acquiring weapons, is unlikely to have the ability to kill as much as he does.
He could have fired half of the bullet before stopping to reload.
This means that it is likely that some of his victims will still die, some of them will still be injured, but there will be fewer deaths and fewer injuries.
Can this stop gun crime? No.
Will it reduce the impact? Yes.
Would it be a serious dispute in the United States if a fraction of the federal assault weapons ban were not allowed to expire? Would it?
The law on guns is one of the few in the world. Google-able.
All of us who work all day on program research, every day, all the days we work on the show, on Google, you can hardly research on some topics.
Everything else is about sex, or when you type sex in a Google search engine, it looks like something that might be related to sex.
But with respect to the law of guns, it\'s a sex-free thing and you can\'t get any useful information through Google search because the gun lobby is completely dominating the debate.
Because of this, I wouldn\'t even suggest you do your own independent research online.
You have to do it in the library and in the book.
I tell you that you will not find trustworthy and impartial information on the Internet.
But in 2004, when the assault weapons ban was allowed to expire, one thing that followed it was the ban on high
Magazine of pistol capacity.
This is the story of a dog biting.
Noting how powerful the gun lobby is in the United States is beyond the political cliché.
To what extent did they dominate the debate about guns in American politics.
Yes, the entire assault weapons ban is allowed to expire on 2004 and all terms are allowed to be terminated.
Everyone said that it is impossible for the United States to solve any gun-related problems now.
If any solution has anything to do with guns, even try to solve any problem.
But who would say that an American like Jared Loughner was able to fire 31 bullets from his pistol without stopping-it was important to shoot 31 bullets from his semi-automatic pistol?
Who would say it is important to hang this extended magazine on his semi-automatic pistol so that he can continue to shoot humans until 31 bullets leave the gun and 20 people are
Who will make this argument?
In 1988, four delegates were willing to sayfour, four—
No, we won\'t ban plastic guns, said four delegates.
Plastic guns are too important for our country.
We will not ban them.
Four people were willing to vote against it.
Even Dick Cheney denied it.
In 1986, it was a senator who was willing to say that as a country, we should keep legitimate pistol bullets specifically designed to penetrate the body armor. Cop-
It is too important for the United States to kill bullets.
One senator was willing to say that.
There are some policy measures that Americans in the political arena have long agreed that they should be used to prevent or prevent some degree of gun chaos in the United States.
I don\'t care about common wisdom.
This is not an area that cannot be regulated.
Who will not only oppose this common wisdom, will it?
But who will stand up and who will be that --
Who will come forward against the bill of Congresswoman Caroline McCarthy and Senator Frank Lautenberg to address the 2004 issue?
A bill says no, we\'re not going to re-list the entire assault weapons ban, we know we can\'t win on this right now, but at least let\'s get back to high-
Magazine of illegal capacity of pistol.
At least let\'s go back to the past and stop Jared Loughner with 15 bullets instead of 30 before he has to reload.
This fix is already considered absolutely impossible!
You can\'t debate such things in America!
The common wisdom says, no, this is not going to work, not even bother to introduce it.
Common wisdom is not possible.
The United States cannot solve this problem or even talk about solving it. You know what?
This is not impossible.
Actually, that\'s the least we can do.
Who will object to this?
Who is this Dick Cheney?
Twenty years later, if they survive in politics, they will still answer the question of how exactly they voted against such a thing. (
Start Video Editing)
If it was a clean vote would you authorize the ban on police killer bullets and plastic weapons? CHENEY: Yes. (END VIDEO CLIP)(
MADDOW: in this country, there is an argument in favor of gun control that is well known across the country.
Gun control is a reason, a policy proposal to stop gun violence, to reduce the number of Americans killed by guns known throughout the country. That was—
This is one thing that people can repeat each other.
This is one thing people know, even if they don\'t know anything about the subject.
This is done by a household name.
It is a repetition between people.
This has been circulated as a good argument, even beyond the immediate scope of the person who brought the original case, or beyond the scope of the person who listened to the case originally proposed.
It already has its own life.
This is a national phenomenon in terms of policies to stop gun violence.
This argument, that is, the policy of stopping gun violence, if you ask them, anyone in this country may have heard of it, I\'m not kidding, is this the famous comedy section of Chris Locke? (
Start Video Editing)
Comedian Chris Locke: everyone talking about gun control has to throw away guns. (
Delete dirty words)that. I like guns.
If you have a gun, you don\'t have to exercise. (LAUGHTER)
I don\'t exercise anymore.
I\'m not jogging.
You have pecs, I have Tecs(LAUGHTER)ROCK: Oh, man. (
Delete dirty words)
You don\'t need gun control.
Do you know what we need?
We need some bullet controls.
We need to control the bullets. That‘s right.
I think all the bullets cost $5,000. (LAUGHTER)
Rock: $5,000 a bullet. You know why?
Because if a bullet costs $5,000, there will be no more innocent onlookers. (
Cheers and applause)
ROCK: he must have done something every time someone gets shot.
He has $50,000 worth of bullets on him.
If a bullet costs $5,000, people think before they kill someone.
I\'m going to take yours (
Delete dirty words)
If I can afford it, let\'s go. (LAUGHTER)
I\'m going to give me another job.
I\'m going to start saving, you dead man!
You \'d better hope I don\'t have a bullet in the basket.
So even if you get hit by a stray bullet, you don\'t have to go to the doctor to get it out.
Whoever shoots, you take the bullet back.
I\'m sure you got my property! (LAUGHTER)(END VIDEO CLIP)
Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Locke, the only gun control spokesman in the United States.
This is the only rabbit hole you can Google online about public policy blocking gun violence that doesn\'t take you from a 100% \"open it from me,\" unreadable, all capitalized, forever. It is comedy.
Everyone says it is impossible to develop or even debate public policies to combat gun crime.
The United States cannot solve this huge problem we face.
We are helpless.
Our hands are 100% tied.
We have no choice.
This is common wisdom.
I don\'t think it\'s true.
No, I don\'t think the $5,000 bullet idea heard around the world will work, but here\'s an idea.
You can see all the hieroglyphs.
Look at the Mark
This is a bullet laser engraved on the back.
This is an idea called ammunition coding.
The idea is that you will give them a unique fingerprint at each round of ammo manufacturing.
If such ammunition is used in a crime, the law enforcement department will be able to track the source of the ammunition.
Obviously, it will not stop the crime until it does, but if it does, it will provide law enforcement with a way to solve it.
It does not prohibit anything.
It does not violate anyone\'s right to how many bullets they want to fire.
This is a way to solve gun crimes.
Are we so incompetent about gun crime that we can\'t even implement the idea?
In recent years, bullet code legislation has been considered in some countries.
This is just an example of something politically possible, even now, even in the United States.
If we want to solve the problem of gun slaughter in the United States, the unique torrent of gun murder in the United States --
If we want to accept this and we want to deny the common wisdom that we, as a nation, cannot do in front of this question, what is our choice?
Now joining us is a person who lives in challenges every day, and in fact he has successfully completed the challenge, the mayor of Newark, New Jersey, my friend Corey buke.
Corey, nice to meet you.
Mayor of Newark Corey Booker, New Jersey: Nice to meet you, Rachel. How are you?
I\'m sorry to walk into you with Chris Locke, but I do think that\'s the only argument people have heard about gun control that they can repeat. BOOKER: Right.
But I think what he did, he was a social review expert, we had a terrible tragedy in Arizona, but in the United States, there were 34 people every day, because there are a lot of people killed at Virginia Tech, we have a massacre around the United States every day.
Someone was shot in Newark today.
We can take some measures.
I have to say that there is a bipartisan coalition where the mayor is against illegal guns and they are fed up with this incredibly tragic but absurd reality.
We can pass some sensible laws when you look into most gun owners in the United States --
Frank Lenz conducted a poll of gun owners, and more than 80% agreed that we would not be able to pass the sensible gun laws of Congress.
MoDo: what kind of law?
What kind of things will people with guns support?
Booker: you can\'t go to the criminal. It\'s outrageous --
I can\'t buy guns at gun retailers, but there are gun shows all over the country.
If you are a terrorist on the terrorist watch list and if you are a criminal and you are the one who is abusing your spouse, you do not need to do any background checks, you can load the trunk of a car.
We have to close the gun show.
There are other things we can do.
Now, for example, there is something called the fire sales law.
If you shut down a retailer for illegally selling guns to people who do not do background checks, then, once they are closed, they can take their full inventory and sell it, no background checks are required.
These laws that we have in the United States, most wise people, right or left, will agree that changes need to be made, which are the source of thousands of guns in the United States.
We call it the iron pipes on the East Coast because they come from states like Virginia where gun laws are very loose.
It has gun supplies in Philadelphia, New York, Newark, New Haven, and iron pipes along the way.
MADDOW: in terms of how you deal with this in Newark --
What do you think you can choose when you become mayor of Newark --
In terms of policy options, in terms of the way law enforcement is implemented in your city, will this have a real impact?
Booker: First of all, let me tell you that I have a stern police officer who is in charge of my police station.
Before I went on the show, he really yelled at me and said he needed to get some crazy stuff from our streets, these high-end magazines that released horror in my community.
MADDOW: the number of bullets, the large-capacity magazine?
Booker: The number of bullets, that-
The kind of weapon we put down.
Please understand that there are some things that people need to know-in my four years in Newark we have had hundreds of unfortunate people shot and killed.
But I \'ve only seen one shot in my city by someone who bought a gun legally.
What we\'re seeing now is that when you pull the trigger and you can drop so many bullets in a second or two, it\'s easy to get these incredible weapons of mass destruction, these weapons of mass destruction, if we should advocate a sensible policy, may begin to limit the ability of criminals to get them.
This is the most frustrating thing for me.
Look, our anger in the United States is understandable, and it\'s intuitive --
What we see is painful.
But what people don\'t understand is that this happens day after day throughout our country.
People don\'t stand up and say what we should do about it together.
Walking into the community and talking to the children is terrible --
Kids who can tell you about guns and weapons because they are easy to access.
Because we have Swiss cheese guns that allow criminals to get them, they are easy to get.
So, now that Congress doesn\'t even appoint a new head of the ATF, it\'s ridiculous, it\'s the longest thing to lead, to improve our national instant inspection system, in this system, there are a lot of loopholes in our capabilities, gaps, and background checks that fail, and we don\'t really fund the 21st century system.
Even looking for ways to make sure we close the holes
Close the gap between federal agencies, state agencies and local authorities and communicate with each other to ensure-
Hudderburg is a good example of the FBI not communicating with the military.
In this case, we often do not communicate key information with the Arizona Army with the FBI or others, which may put people on the list to ban them from buying guns.
I don\'t worry, we can discuss this, frankly.
I\'m not worried about the people, the law.
Law-abiding citizens in my city own guns.
I\'m worried about how easy it is to get a gun for criminals in the United States right now.
By the way, we also purchase weapons in other countries.
I mean, the gang war in Mexico did affect our country.
Even weapons there come from some parts of the United States, because it\'s easy to buy guns if you\'re a criminal. MADDOW: It‘s—
I think that when we start to think about the possibility of political and gun issues, what you find there, it\'s not even necessarily legal to change the legal purchase, but making sure something illegal is actually not available, just law enforcement issues, which I think is from the water-
An excuse for this sentence
But we cannot move forward with common wisdom, and we cannot find anything that can be agreed.
I think there is still a lot of political room for agreement on law enforcement. BOOKER: Right.
For a country so strong and so great, to tolerate this level of fear in our communities, a tragedy that happens every day in our country --
It seems to me that we accept that this is not American.
We are a great country.
We can deal with this level of violence, and if we come together and do smart and reasonable things, we can make it the past of our country.
MADDOW: it\'s too important to give up.
Mayor Corey Booker of Newark, New Jersey
It\'s always nice to meet you, my friend.
Thank you for your excellent work.
Booker: Thank you very much.
MADDOW: there is a link between what will be voted on in Congress this week and why it didn\'t happen, the reasons for the congressional adjournment.
It\'s coming. (
MADDOW: stories like the Tucson shooting, on the one hand, look like they just happened.
On the other hand, they seem to be the only story in the world that knows, and it will be the only story that matters forever.
But I can tell you that the story has been going on long enough for the first round of content posted on the Internet to get facts about it --
I checked it online.
Evidence A. The suspect, Jared Loughner, is A registered Republican.
This is posted online and should be evidence of this voter registration document, which is loose from the berths and floats in the sea of chaos.
You can see it\'s not true.
As people on the \"Free Republic\" website have pointed out, you can judge that Jared Loughner is not proven to be a registered Republican, who registered this fake ps to Mr.
Rafa misspelled \"Tucson\" as \"Tusk \".
\"This is the spelling they use for tourists, not for people who live there.
In addition, the Pima County registration office said,
Loughner was registered as an independent in 2006, last voted in 2008 and is now listed as inactive.
Working on the other side of the political spectrum, according to the evidence in Jared Loughner\'s own so-called YouTube archive, Jared Loughner, a communist, is a frustrating argument.
Guess which book Mr.
Loughner listed on TV what conservatives want to talk about most? (
Start Video Editing)
I mean, the man we know, for example, is reading Marx, reading Hitler, burning the American flag.
Host Glenn Baker: his favorite book includes the Communist Manifesto-
Oh, and \"Mein Kampf.
\"These two people are hardly different for these people. (END VIDEO CLIP)
To these guys.
All the other people are like Jared lovelner.
Just like there is no difference in this person, this person is obviously disturbing 22-year-old guy.
He is no different from those books and The Wizard of Oz, and The Wizard of Oz is also on his list, or what he said before \"killing a robin\" followed closely by the conservative hero\'s \"Ayn Rand\" first novel \"we live\" or \"phantom toll station \", this is a chapter book with small pictures.
Virginia Fox, the new Republican education committee chairman and congressman, checked the list and told her local newspaper, citing \"This guy looks Communist.
His faith is liberal.
Is \"Phantom toll station\" true?
You know, if Ayn Rand is a liberal, then tonight, Sen.
Rand Paul is having a big fight with his bookshelf.
Anyone who tells you about this child accused of committing a crime, according to a list of completely random books he posted on YouTube, Nazi, communist, liberal, conservative, or anything else, that person didn\'t give you the analysis that you should have relied on, to say the least, okay?
I know it\'s a big story, but the facts and the real facts are still worth looking. It matters. (
MADDOW: 90 Years in February 19, the son of the governor of Arizona was found guilty of sexual assault and kidnapping for insanity in January.
He was taken to Arizona State Hospital where he spent most of the past 20 years.
In January, Brewer himself was known throughout the country for many other reasons, including the state\'s
The immigration law she signed last year
But for decades, as a civil servant, Brewer was the real champion of Arizona\'s mental health services in January.
As a state councillor, she is fighting for money in the state hospital\'s budget to pay for a new version of the drug for mental division.
As secretary of state, she has promoted the establishment of an online medical directory system that makes it easier for Ali onians to hand over power of attorney to relatives to meet the needs of physical and mental health.
In January, Brewer first served as governor, recovering nearly $9 million from mental health and medication programs.
When Arizona\'s budget collapsed and the state decided to close the budget gap by cutting the services provided by the state, one thing in Arizona was that Brewer struggled for decades to protect and enhance in January --
The system of treating, nursing and controlling people with severe mental illness in this state.
When she signed a $36 million reduction in mental health insurance in the state in January, Brewer quoted the phrase, \"This is one of the hardest things I \'ve ever done in my career.
\"In the past two fiscal years, mental health insurance for people in Arizona who have no quality of Medicaid has been cut by about half.
Since the arrest of Jared LOUGHNER after the Arizona shooting on Saturday, whether as a suspect or as a human being, there has been no official news of any formal mental health assessment of him.
However, the depth and breadth of the report describes writing, beliefs, and behaviors that seem irrational. Loughner.
There are many reports written by people who interact with him in person who feel he is mentally ill.
Although it is reported that it seems that crazy behavior has cost him
His work at fast food restaurants, his volunteer position at the animal shelter, and his position at the community University, recently, there is no evidence yet that he has received any mental health treatment, there is also no evidence that he was formally referred to mental health services, let alone entrusted to them against his will.
Will these services be available if someone tries to get Jared Loughner to join?
If they may be provided by the state, the state-
Funded services, the answer is that the chances will be much smaller this year, or that health care itself will not be as comprehensive as it was in Arizona two years ago.
Did his family, the person he was in contact with, choose to give him mental health care?
If they have a choice, do they know they have a choice? The U. S.
The House did not meet this week, as we expected.
Tomorrow, the House will consider a resolution to honor the victims and survivors of the Tucson shooting on Saturday, and the House will then adjourn.
So since the House does not actually meet this week, they will not be working on the schedule for this week, a vote to abolish health care reform.
According to our next guest, one of the provisions of health care reform is that it is entirely certain that health insurance companies must provide the same insurance for mental illness as physical illness.
If your insurance covers your body, it should also cover your brain.
This is a concept called mental health parody.
It was introduced in the legislation advocated by Tipper Gore in 1996.
On 2008, President George w. Bush signed a measure that greatly strengthened that position. Bush.
In terms of health care reform, the previous legislation has finally matured.
The loophole was blocked.
It\'s black and white.
Health reform has made mental health a national law.
This means that at the home of Jared Loughner, in every family across the country, every person with health insurance will be notified to indicate to all those with health insurance, if you are insured for broken legs, you can also get help with mental illness.
The notice also provides information on how to know if a person or family member receiving the notice needs access to mental health care services.
Publicly inform everyone across the country that they have a mental health option, which is part of the health care reform.
For terrible reasons, it is not possible this week to abolish this or other health care reforms.
Now joining us is former congressman, Rhode Island Democrat Patrick Kennedy, of course the son of the late Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts, and a long-standing mental health advocate.
Member, thank you very much for joining us. FMR. REP.
Mental health advocate: Thank you, Rachel.
MADDOW: did I correctly describe how the health care reform legislation is going to deal with the law that you tried to pass in 2008?
Kennedy: Rachel, you did qualify it because, frankly, in the health care struggle, do we have a health care system or do we have a health care system?
Do we only take people away after they get sick or do we try to stop them from getting sick in the first place?
Whether it\'s heart disease or diabetes, this should apply, or it should apply when you have a mental illness.
People don\'t have to endure these symptoms. If we treat them first, society will suffer the consequences of these symptoms.
This is the message we need to convey.
Frankly, I think if something happens, I doubt we can find a glimmer of hope, but if there is, we should be committed to making sure it doesn\'t happen again.
Unfortunately, we have been telling ourselves that we do not want this to happen again.
However, it happens again and again.
The reason is, Rachel, because there is discrimination and stigma when it comes to brain and mental illness, because people don\'t think it\'s an organ in the body, it\'s traditional for other organs, they don\'t think it\'s medical either.
But we know the drugs, we know-
We are learning nerves. circuitry.
We have to diagnose these diseases and we have to treat them.
In the end, if we do enough research, we can cure these diseases.
MADDOW: in terms of public policy to effectively address mental illness, there seems to be no evidence that the Jared Loughner, who was accused of being a gunman in Arizona, has had any interaction with the mental health system.
If he does have a mental health problem, and if it is not possible, given our knowledge of his recent past, if he has never really been involved in the system, should we think that the system failed him?
Kennedy: Now, this question is coming back to the big picture again.
We all have community responsibility for the Jared lovelner couple.
Because if we don\'t take care of him, look at the consequences for these families.
Look at the consequences.
No relatives have lived their lives now.
So, if we leave, it will not disappear.
We \'d better turn to someone in need.
If someone falls on the side of the road, we will go and we will help them instinctively.
We will ask for help if we see someone having a heart attack.
But if someone is acting weird because of mental illness, we usually turn to another direction.
What we can learn from this is that unless we turn to that person and get the support they need, we can\'t expect them to come back in some way and they\'ll be fine.
We need to make sure that they are all right, because the devastating consequence is the family who suffered tonight because of that tragedy.
MADDOW: members of Congress, the states across the country are currently facing a terrible budget situation, and one of the first issues that often get attention to is mental health services.
At a time of fiscal tightening, is there a reason to keep investing in these things and even increase investing in them?
Well, look at our criminal justice system.
We spent so much money.
We\'re suing this guy.
We have to do all this.
Most crimes that can be prevented through appropriate mental health interventions require only a small portion of our money to sue, to sue, and to imprison this tragic perpetrator, he was thought to need help many times before.
But again, as a society, we will not turn to him for stigma.
There is discrimination against people who behave strangely.
So if their disease is in the mind, not in their heart, we treat them differently.
Until society changes its attitude towards these diseases, we will never be able to codify Rachel and solve the problem with more budgets.
This is an attitude challenge that our country must face now.
Frankly, Rachel, as you and the governor pointed out.
Brewer, she has it at home.
No family in the United States has a mental illness.
Now is the time for us to remove the stigma and we treat it as a physical condition.
If we treat others, we will not have such a tragedy, or at least we will have fewer.
I think you can tell every family that suffers as a victim, wouldn\'t it be good if there were fewer people who suffered these tragedies.
Patrick Kennedy, a former Rhode Island congressman and a strong mental health advocate, thank you for joining us tonight, sir.
It\'s nice to have you here.
Thank you, Rachel.
President Obama will address the national memorial conference tomorrow.
Next, what the president might say to help those who listen, Rev, our friend. Welton Gaddy.
Please stay with us.
MADDOW: there will be a memorial ceremony in Arizona tomorrow, and President Obama is expected to attend.
With regard to the shooting on Saturday, we don\'t know what the president will choose to say to the nation.
But everyone who wants him to address the country\'s political climate, civilization, should think that the president has done so recently.
Not long ago, after members of Congress, including Gabriel Gifford, whose window was smashed a few weeks after the health care reform vote, he did it. (
Start Video Editing)
US President Barack Obama: You can disagree with a policy without demonizing people who support it.
You can question someone\'s point of view and judgment without having to question their motives or patriotism.
Phrases like \"socialist\" and \"Soviet\"
\"Fascist\" and \"right wing\"wing nut” -
This may be the headline, but it will also compare our government, our political opponents, with authoritarian and even murderous regimes.
This slander and overthe-
High-level rhetoric closed the door for the possibility of compromise.
It undermines the deliberations of democracy.
After all, it hinders learning because why do we listen to the voice of fascist, socialist, or right-wing --
Wing Nut or left-wing nut?
This makes it almost impossible for those with legitimate but bridging differences to sit on the same table and solve the problem.
It takes away our rational and serious debate, which we need for the very real and very big challenges facing this country.
It makes our culture rough.
In the worst case, it can signal to the most extreme elements of our society, and perhaps violence is a reasonable response. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BMADDOW: when I want to talk to someone about important things like this, the people who are joining us now are the people I really want to talk. He is Rev.
Wilton Gady, the pastor of the menronomminster Baptist Church in Luna, Luis, and the head of the inter-religious union.
Wilton, thank you very much for coming. REV.
Wilton Gady, president of the Alliance of different faiths: It\'s a pleasure to be here, Rachel.
MADDOW: at a time like this, what do you think is the right role of the President, when the country turns to faith and quiet reflection after this disaster, like turning to debate and discussion?
Rachel, I think there\'s a big challenge ahead of the president.
I think he needs to identify with families who have been hurt so badly.
He needs sympathy for them.
He needs to be sensitive to the city and the state.
I talked to some people in Tucson.
I almost always hear that we are very sad and angry.
But I think the president is on the bottom line and must be the Chief Executive Officer of the United States, talking in very specific terms about how people find hope when they are afraid, angry, when they don\'t know where to go next, when they really border a paranoia.
In some cases, if you read the history of the president, you will see the presidents who are trying to act as religious leaders, one kind --of-
The minister\'s commander in chiefin-chief.
This is not what we need.
We have religious leaders.
There is a religious dimension.
But we need President Obama to put it bluntly that this is not only a bad moment, we have to be good to each other.
He must define civilization.
He needs to talk about how we got through the aisle.
He has to talk about the way the government itself dies in the democratic process unless we learn to talk to each other with dignity and respect.
He must be clear that the rule of law will exist side by side with the protection of civil rights and individual access to mental and physical health care.
Well, I don\'t know if the president will discuss civilization tomorrow.
I think the White House may think that this can be seen as an argument that the president\'s implied murderer has a political motive.
We don\'t actually know this at this point. GADDY: Right. That‘s correct.
MADDOW: I have to say, though, that I\'m personally not sure if I want to spend my energy on making our political dialogue more civil.
I hope people will not threaten to shoot each other, whether civilized or not.
Whether people are rude or not, I want the threat of violence to stop.
This is my bottom line on responsibility.
Where are you on this issue?
GADDY: Well, I\'m the first person to define civilization.
Politeness is not just good manners.
It\'s not just passive.
This is the view of respecting others.
It is not to look at people who are different from you and say, because they are different, they are wrong, or they are evil.
I look at American history.
Rachel, we have been at our best, when the debate is very intense and intense.
The debate involves a variety of conflicting issues, but people in the debate can walk out of the room and hug each other and say, \"We are all Americans.
We\'re all trying to do the right thing.
\"We have to go back to this, or we will continue to lose people and our democracy in the streets. MADDOW: Rev.
Welton Gaddy is the head of the inter-religious union and one of the smartest people I know.
Welton, thank you very much as always.
We will be back soon. (
MADDOW: MSNBC will start at 8: 00 and will broadcast the memorial ceremony tomorrow in Tucson without commercial disruptionm. Eastern.
The \"last sentence\" will be broadcast as usual at 10: 00.
Keith will host a special live version of the \"Countdown\" at 11: 00.
We will be back at midnight east to watch our special show.
We hope you can listen.
Now, it\'s time to \"last word\" with Lawrence O\'Donnell.
Good evening, Lawrence.
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